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Cindy Jennings
Supporter
If you truly have the Holy Spirit, which is imparted to you at the moment you believe, then you will produce the fruits of the Spirit. Salvation produces works, not vice versa. What this verse is saying is that God will prune apostates who never truly believed, were never given the Holy Spirit and are not producing fruit. He prunes those away so that the true believers can grow and produce even more fruit. The difference is between true believers and pretenders. God never takes away the Holy Spirit once it's given but He doesn't give it unless the faith is real. Only He knows.
Dan Rivers
Supporter
No I don't believe that the branches that are cut off and burned are those representing born again children of God.
The ones that are cut off and burned are not born again, they are those spoken about in the parable of the sower and the parable of the tares & the wheat, those that cannot produce fruit. Matt 13, Mark 4, Luke 8, and "false" ones spoken about throughout scripture, Gal 2:4, 2 Cor 11:13, 26, Jude.
Judas was one of those "false" ones that did not produce fruit he was cut off.
Some believe that "false" ones are not connected to the vine, but If only "good soil" Christians, the ones that DO produce fruit (Matt 13:23) were connected, then why would any be "cut off" and burned?
I disagree that "false' ones are not connected to the vine.
I've heard some say that even those born again are cut off IF they don't produce fruit. But that would mean Jesus was wrong when he said they would produce fruit, Matt 13:23. In Matt 7:17-20, Jesus says a "GOOD" tree CANNOT produce "BAD" fruit, it only produces "GOOD" fruit, In verse 20 he says"...you will know them by their fruit"
Paul also says that before being saved we had NO fruit, but after being saved we do...
{Rom 6:21 NKJV} What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things [is] death.
{Rom 6:22 NKJV} BUT NOW having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you HAVE your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
So why would branches that have fruit be "cut off"? Jesus never says they won't produce fruit.
Granted some will not produce as much fruit as others, but as long as there's even one little grape sprouting, the father will not "cut it off" but instead will prune it so that it may produce even more fruit!
The pruning renews our spirit, soul and body, it heals us when were sick, it disciplines us when we need discipline. The Father is the one that does the work in us, the work he started he will finish. Matt 8:7, Phil 1:6, Rom 12:1-4, Heb 12:5-11
Now wouldn't being cut off and BURNED mean loss of salvation? That would contradict the very clear words of Jesus in John 6:37; 10:28; Luke 15:4. Where he says that he, "... will not lose any of those given to him by the Father"...and that "...NO ONE can snatch any of them out of the hand of the Father"
Wouldn't that mean that our inheritance, "guaranteed" by the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13, 14 is really NOT guaranteed? That would also mean that once you are cut off and burned, there is NO chance of you ever getting back into the vine. No chance of ever being saved...
The ones that are cut off are the "false" ones...and in order to be "cut off" they have to be connected. If they are not connected then there's no need to cut them off!
Judas was connected. Those of the footpath, stony and thorny ground are connected. The "tares" are connected. They sprouted but because their roots were not IN the "good" soil they withered away. Those are the ones that are "cutoff", thrown away and "burned". They cannot abide in Jesus because they have no faith.
And of course the ones that do produce fruit, born again children of God, are pruned so that they may produce even more fruit.
All Glory and Praise to God!
Cosmin Vonu
Supporter
I believe the question refers to our eternal security of salvation in Christ. And since "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.." [2Tim3:16] thus we need to interpret scripture with scripture if we truly believe it is the infallible Word of God. There's so much to be said about the passage in John 15 but one thing needs to be established: If Christians place their eternal salvation in the sole work of Jesus Christ on the Cross which is his work of Redemption, Propitiation and Atonement for sins once and for all and he has purged our sins and sat at the right hand of the Father and became our Representative(High Priest) before God's throne of Grace (the book of Hebrews sheds a lot of light here), than we need to look at a number of verses to find out if there's any contradiction in Jesus's own words. A couple of references from Hebrews first: "This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." [Heb 6:19-20] "But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." [Heb7:24-25] We also need to remember that one of God's attributes is immutability, He never changes: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." [Heb 13:8] Thus we need to understand what Jesus Himself tells us in the Gospels in reference to salvation, particularly in the Gospel of John. "Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” [John 3:5-8] It is clear from the above text that we do not give spiritual birth to ourselves rather it is the Work of The Holy Spirit Himself, after all Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us: " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." In John 3, Jesus goes further to say that those who believe in Him will not perish and will not be condemned "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." [John 3:15-16]; "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" [John 3:18] But here are a few verses straight from the mouth of Jesus again which should put our mind to ease: " My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." [John 10:27-29] "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition(Judas), that the Scripture might be fulfilled." [John 17:12], note that Christ is the High Priest, the Mediator between God and man Who continues to intercede and keep those who are His. John 6:37 says: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." Verse 39 also says:"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing.."
Doreen Lovell
Supporter
John 15 The Vine And The Branch Here Yeshua (Jesus) explains the divine –human relationship by the analogy of a grapevine. He is like the main vine and the disciples are compared to the branches; the Father (God) tends the branches like a gardener. In Verse 2, Yeshua (Jesus) said “You are the branches”. Here He reminds us that just as the branches gain life from the vine and cannot live apart from it, we also are dependent on Him for eternal life. The image of the vine and its branches describes the union of Yeshua (Jesus) with the believer.
Samantha Garro
Supporter
The way I see it, Jesus said that if we remain in him, we will not be cut off and burned. We may be pruned, yes, to get rid of things that are not good for us, or detrimental to our lives as children of God, but so long as we remain connected to him, he is not going to discard of us. If we stay connected to Jesus (the vine), we (the branches) will be cared for by God (the gardener) to always ensure we are as "healthy" as possible, and able to bear good fruit!
Elisabeth Woltman
Supporter
My understanding of this verse is that Jesus is the vine, vine that provides life to the branches. If anyone chooses to reject Him, the living water is cut off and the only outcome is the spiritual death. As to your question regarding the born again, we have been given the crown which we have to guard and make sure not to give it away. Another words, we constantly need to ask the Holy Spirit for the strength to resist the enemy's temptation by not allowing the flash to take over the Spirit. When turn to the reprobate mind, refuse to listen to the Spirit and reject Jesus' teaching, we loose the crown and the salvation
Leslie Coutinho
Supporter
Ezekiel 15:2: Son of man, what is the vine tree more than any tree, or than a branch which is among the trees of the forest? How and why would the vine tree want to be more than any tree? And then why does the branch want to outshine all the trees of the forest? (John 12:19) On the thoughts that they were branches of the true vine and therefore could not perish! If the vine did not bear fruit, brought forth wild grapes, and wanted to outshine other trees, then the vine is only to be used as timber for fire. For a true vine, it is esteemed only on account of its fruit, if not to be cast into the fire. (John 15:6) If one wants to be more than any other tree then he will lead himself to set up idols in his heart by putting a stumbling block of their iniquity before their face (Ezekiel 14:3), which will lead him to make an object of the graven image of wood, (Ezekiel 15:3) to consult and then be led by the wooden idol the spirit of whoredoms that leads them astray to be unfaithful to their God. (Hosea 4:12/5:4) Can the Spirit be in an idol of wood, clay, silver, bronze, or gold made by the hands of men? Lord Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches that abideth in Him, then why do we want to be more than any tree, to have idols in our hearts, and to get the praises of men? Who leads us to our Lord Jesus, for no men can come to Him except the Father who is in Him that will lead us to our Lord Jesus. Let’s not be blocks of wood to be fashioned into idols for name and fame, which leads one to consult the spirit of divination, for then their divining rods (staff) shall play harlots against God the Father. (Hosea 4:12) Hosea 10:1: Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself: according to the multitude of his fruit he hath increased the altars; according to the goodness of his land they have made goodly images.
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