John 17:26 tells us that God's love dwells within believers, and Phil. 1:9 (AMPV) tells us that God's love grows in knowledge and discernment. Does that mean that God's love is an integral part of the believer's soul, growing in knowledge and discernment?
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Asked March 25 2015
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Craig Mcelheny
Supporter
For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
James Munro
The quotation in Phil. 1:9 is: "And this I pray: that your love may abound yet more and more and extend to its fullest development in knowledge and all keen insight".
It will be seen that it is our love that may abound - exceed or increase. If we consider God's love we see that His love to each one of us is infinite and cannot increase! We may ask for more grace, more wisdom, more help but we can never ask for more love - we see it fully expressed at Calvary. We are loved as much as God the Father loved His Son (John 15:9)
How our love may abound or increase is by a knowledge of Christ - His person, His ways and His work.
Another way our love may increase is by a knowledge of the heinousness of sin.
Luke 7:47 says: "But to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little" If we imagine that the sins we have, or will, commit are of little consequence we will love little.
An appreciation of what Christ has done for us with an appreciation of His person will cause our love to abound.
Craig Mcelheny
James,
I’m sure that you can acknowledge the believer falls woefully short of God’s glory (Rom. 3:23) in spite of the fact that the believer is indwelled by God’s Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11). Even the apostle Paul said he fell short of perfection and the righteousness from God in Phil. 3:8-9 and Phil. 3:10-12. Paul goes on to say that the thing he strives for is the prize that is received in the resurrection at the end of the Age (the upward call) in Phil. 3:13-14.
Additionally, we see in 1 Corinthians 9:24-25 that the prize is an imperishable crown. 1 Peter 5:4 tells us that at the Second Coming of Jesus, we will receive a crown of glory. It is imperishable (unfading), and reserved in heaven for us (1 Pet. 1:3-4). Is it too big a leap for you to make the connection between the glory that the Father gave to the Son in John 17:22, and the love that the Son wants to give to those who know him in John 17:26? Both are given to believers, and are in believers to make them one with the Father and the Son. If the answer is no, then is it a leap too far to suggest that the love that is given to us when we first believe is under development until the day we receive our crown of glory?
Can any believer rightfully say they love as defined in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7? We are all under construction, waiting for the Crown of Glory that comes with the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:13).
God bless
James Munro
Dear Brother Craig,
Thanks for your comments and I think any difference we may see is one of emphasis. I do see the link between the Son's glory and His love to us.
Interestedly, to follow my line of thought of God's spiritual gifts given to us we see that we have already been given the glory that the Son was given - seen in the verse you cited, John 17:22.
I suppose the point I was trying to make is that we have been given all the blessings - all the love, all the grace, all the glory necessary for us to live here for His glory - in the language of the Ephesian epistle - we already are seated in the heavenlies. You rightly point out that there is the development of these blessings - and the appreciation of them - until the day of His appearing.
Every Blessing
James Munro
Craig Mcelheny
James,
I very much appreciate your response. You are correct to say that a believer is already seated in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6). (For those who may not consider themselves believers, “In Christ Jesus” is Christianese for being indwelled by God’s Holy Spirit – saved by grace). This is evident in the verses that precede Eph. 2:6, i.e. Eph. 2:4-5.
I would argue, however, that a believer has not been given ALL the love, nor ALL the glory the moment they first believe. This is alluded to in Eph. 2:7 to say we will not realize what it is that God has done for us, until the end of the Age. 1 Corinthians 13:12 confirms this. It is the moment the ‘perfect’ comes, as stated in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10. The word ‘perfect’ is derived from the Greek word telos G5056, “from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state”.
In the context of 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, the conclusion of the believer’s state of being is everlasting love (agape). This ties back to Phil. 1:9 where it states that the love within us grows in knowledge and discernment. The Amplified version of Phil. 1:9 makes that abundantly clear.
The point I would like to make is this: the Church’s view of God’s agape love is much the same as their view of man’s ability to love, i.e. an emotion. It is not. It lives within us, and John 17:22 tells us it is a characteristic of God's very nature - His glory.
James Munro
Brother Craig,
I would not deny for one minute that there is a great deal of improvement necessary for the believer! I just need to look within.
If we consider the glory we have I think it's in two parts or aspects. There is the inherent glory - given to us here and now. I suggest that is the glory in John's gospel we have considered. The apostle John said of the Lord, "We beheld His glory" This glory was hidden from the unbeliever who saw no beauty in Him that they should desire Him. Christ's glory was appreciated by His Father and I suggest ours is too. There is the future glory when we shall be fashioned like the body of His glory.
However, I cannot see how we can possibly have a fraction of God's love now and receive the balance in the future and I'm struggling to find a Scripture to help me on that point. Phil. 1:9 and 1 Cor. 13 seems to be our love to God and others around us and can be developed. As God's love is infinite it must always remain infinite however much is given. I totally agree that God's love is more than an emotion - although there may be an emotional element to it, 'I have loved you because I loved you' may demonstrate that - and Ephesians 5 (Christ and the church and husband and wives).
My thoughts on this, in the light of what I read, are that we are given all God's love and it is our responsibility to develop that love (Phil.1:9) and we have been given His glory to be demonstrated in us and will be perfected at Christ's appearing.
Craig Mcelheny
James,
Hang in there, bro! My prayer for you is the same as the apostle Paul’s prayer in Eph. 1:17-18.
Your approach to resolve the difference between the glory we initially receive, and the glory we possess at the resurrection is where you’re going astray. Rather than thinking of the Crown of Glory as something a believer receives, think of it as it stated in the Greek definition for the word, perfect: “the conclusion of an act or state.” That state is like the second in a set of three distinct states defined by the birth process. And how do you get from the initial state in the birth process to the final state? You grow.
God is love (agape) 1 John 4:16, and it is perfected in us (1 John 4:17). It is who God is. He does not sin, nor will we when we complete stage three of the birth process (1 John 5:18 NKJV), but you can’t go from sinner to a sinless nature instantaneously. That is why we run the race (1 John 3:8-9). [The ESV is a poor translation here. The Greek actually states one born of God is not capable of missing the mark – the mark being God’s glory].
In Hebrews 12:22-23 we see the spirits of righteous men made perfect in the heavenly setting at the end of the Age. They went through a growth process. It is the same process that the Creation is going through (Rom. 8:18-19, Rom. 8:20-21, and Rom 8:22-23).
Have I given you enough to answer the question directly? It involves the number of parts that make up a believer’s very being.
Respectfully yours,
Craig
James Munro
Dear Brother Craig,
We seem to have wandered from the original theme and I don't seem to have explained myself sufficiently well. If I have enough space I will come back to the glory question but would like to concentrate on the original love question - does God's love grow in us. The verses you cite refer to our love growing and developing and I'm with you there - the problem I have is not our appreciation, developing and growing in God's love - that is obvious - but rather I believe the Scripture show that we now have all God's love.
1 John 4:16 does not say: "And we have known and believed a fraction of the love that God hath to us. God loves us only in part; and he that dwelleth in this partial love dwelleth in God, and God in him". As previously noted I cannot find a Scripture that indicates that God only gives us now part love but rather I see 1 John 3: 1 confirming John 15:9 that, as we are sons of God we have the love of Christ in its totality. Romans 5:5 and 8:39 also show this truth.
Now to glory! I am not seeking to resolve any difference but the glory we have now must be different from future glory - John 17:22 and Phil. 3:2.
It appears that you are promoting the idea that it is possible to reach a state of perfection and sinlessness in this life - Romans 7:18 knocks that notion on the head. I hope I have misunderstood your comments. 1 John 5:18 does not teach that a believer can reach sinlessness or 1 John 1:8 is contradicted.
Every Blessing
Craig Mcelheny
James,
I’m afraid you have arrived at a wrong conclusion. Let me try to bring us back on track, and I will try to address the partial love issue.
We do not achieve a sinless nature until the resurrection at the end of the age. At that point we will have attained to the fullness of Christ as He became the very essence of the Father’s nature, the radiance of the Father’s glory (Heb. 1:3), or as stated in Eph. 4:13 (NKJV) we will become a ‘perfect man’.
Look at what gets perfected in the Word and when it occurs (1 John 4:17). It is love and it occurs prior to the day of judgment (at the end of the age). You mentioned 1 John 4:16 as a reference against a partial love. If we had the fullness of Christ residing in us from the moment we first believe, we would have a sinless nature, and 1 John 4:17 would have no meaning.
You cite 1 John 3:1 as an example of our possessing the totality of Christ’s love, but note that it refers to us as children of God. Now go back to 1 Corinthians 13:11-12 and note that in the context of agape love and when it is the ‘perfect’ comes (1 Corinthians 13:9-10), we will no longer think like a child – no longer know IN PART. Can I suggest that Phil. 1:9 addresses this by stating God’s love within us grows in knowledge and discernment. It cannot grow if it is fully developed.
God’s glory (His nature) and His (agape) love cannot be separated. God is agape (1 John 4:16). Don’t confuse God’s love FOR us with God’s love IN us. It is eternal, 1 Cor. 13:13
James Munro
Brother Craig,
I think we may need to agree to disagree on this point.
To seek to separate God's love in us and for us seems to me to be semantics. You now seem to concede that God's love for us is infinite and that to me is synonymous with in us. I have always contended that our understanding and appreciation of His love is faulty.
In 1 John 4:16 we have "...the love that God hath (present tense) to (en - resting in) us". The rest of the verse goes on to tell is if we dwell in love we dwell in God and God in us. The next verse is, again, our love and, of course, that needs to be completed as we grow in grace and the knowledge of Christ.
Romans 5:5 tells us that, "the love of God is shed abroad (poured forth) in (again it is 'en') our hearts'. I can see no distinction in the Scripture between His love for us and in us.
The simple point I was trying to make is God's love to and in us. I fully understand that we need to grow, we need to develop, we need to learn and, in the process, we will love better and more - that is not the issue.
While I am happy to continue corresponding I seem to detect a frustration in your emails - capital letters are normally associated with shouting on this side of the water!
It would be ironic and sad if we were to fall out discussing God's love!
Every Blessing
James Munro
Craig Mcelheny
My brother James,
Please forgive me, it was never my intent to yell. Caps are the only way to emphasize a word. Rich Text is not supported.
James, I have to confess that I am frustrated that I can’t convince you of the difference between God’s love for us and His agape love abiding in us. All I’m going to say on that issue is that God’s love for us was manifested to us by the death of His Son Jesus on the cross (1 John 4:9-10). God’s love in us is something that grows in ITS knowledge and discernment (Phil. 1:9 AMPV).
Forgive me for using caps once again, but it is an important distinction, based on the Amplified version:
“And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more and extend to ITS fullest development in knowledge and all keen insight…”
I’m sure you agree that God’s agape love does not reside in us until we are indwelled by His Holy Spirit. Dumb question: Does God’s Holy Spirit increase in knowledge and discernment? Then given the fact that God’s love grows inside us, to perfection at the end of the age, what part of our being could house God’s love? And, can you think of a (Biblical) way that God’s love could grow in knowledge, other than through our physical mental faculties? Additionally, the growth in God’s love has to be something we take with us after death.
James, I very much respect and appreciate you as a brother. I think we veered off course a couple of times, but it is all good input on such a complex issue.
God bless
James Munro
Dear Brother Craig,
My tongue was firmly in my cheek about the shouting business - you have been very gracious.
I think I see now more clearly your point and forgive my slowness but if I may give an example. I may love my wife very much but she might not appreciate that and her love in return is very small - perhaps because of her understanding of me. Now, as we live together she sees qualities (this is an example only!) that she begins to appreciate and her love for me grows and develops. My love for her has not changed but her's has grown and she loves me more.
This is how I see it. God's love - infinite to me but only appreciated feebly, as my knowledge of Him increases so my love grows.
I may be a little unhappy about our mental faculty allowing us to grow in this appreciation, for this, in my mind, might suggest intellect and I'm sure you agree this is a spiritual work and not dependant on IQ or reasoning power (1 Cor.2:2)
It has been great talking to you about this. Just a point. Further to God's love we see in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world..." I see the verb is in the aorist tense. Have you any thoughts on why this tense was used here?
Every Blessing
James Munro