For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
James Kraft
God may use one of His own children to set an example. First Corinthians 5:5. Turn such a one over to Satan to kill the flesh so that His Spirit Ephesians 1;13, may be saved in the day of the Lord. Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit in whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
This was a born again believer who was sleeping with his fathers wife. Even the unbelievers were talking about it.
The man was about to lose his life and the rewards he could have had in heaven, First Corinthians 3:11-15, but the man was still saved. Only his rewards would be burned up. God can not lie. John 3:18. Romans 3:26-28. First John 5:13.
But God who is rich in mercy and grace, can chasten who he wants and withhold chastening from who ever He wants.
God is the only one who knows each one of us and what we have been through in our lives. So God shows mercy instead of chastisement to many.
When King David committed adultery and murder God showed Daved mercy. Under the law he should have been stoned to death. He still received the chastening by losing the baby and his own son turned against him. Absolum.
God can not go back on His word. John 6:47. John 3:18. But He can chasten us even to death, but not loss of the free gift of eternal life. To say we can lose eternal life is to make the cross of Christ of no effect.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVETH to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
First John 1:8. If we say we have no sin we are deceived and the TRUTH is not in us.
We are all sinners to a degree because we cannot be made perfect in the flesh. Only in the Spirit. Colossians 3:3. Eternal security. Chastening, Colossians 3:5-6. Salvation Colossians 2:13 He has forgiven us all trespasses.
We have eternal life now, but we can be chastened by the Lord who is our righteousness before God. Romans 4:5-6.
Salvation is free and we have nothing to boast in. Romans 3:26-28. Rewards in heaven are earned.
The only requirement for us to go to heaven is to accept Jesus free gift of eternal life by our own free will. Once we have we are saved forever. John 3:18. First John 5:13. Romans 6:23 For the penalty of sin is death, and we all sin, First John 1:10, and we all die, but the GIFT of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The GIFT of God is eternal life. Not faith. If faith was the gift God would give everyone the faith because He wants all men to be saved. First Timothy 2:4. Second Peter 3:9. John 6:40.John 12:32. But God gave us a free will to either accept His free gift of eternal life that He paid in full by His one blood sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, First John 2:2, Or not. Once we have made that choice we are a child of the King forever. John 1:12
Gary Wainwright
If “The GIFT of God...” is “Not faith” then by your determination faith is a work. Either faith is a gift or it is a work. If it is a work then we have something to boast of (Ephesians 2:8-9), but if faith is a gift, then we have nothing to boast of. If you say faith is not a gift and faith is not a work, then how does a believer obtain faith?
“If faith was the gift God would give everyone the faith because He wants all men to be saved”. The Bible never says God gives everyone faith but He does give us (believers) a measure of faith (Romans 12:3, Luke 17:5, Hebrews 12:2).
James Kraft
Faith is neither a gift or a work. It takes no effort to believe John 6:47. The gift of God is eternal life. Romans 6:23. Not faith. If faith was the gift then God would give the faith to everyone. It is His will that everyone believe it and be saved. First Timothy 2:4
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on Him who justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
God is the author and finisher of our faith. John 3:18 Believers are no longer condemned, but unbelievers are condemned already because they have not believed on the name of the Son of God.
No one can boast in heaven tell God you did not give me the faith so I could be saved. No. People are not saved because they do not believe the gospel. First Corinthians 15:3-4
Romans 3:26-28 For He is the just and the justifier of them that BELIEVE in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? By the law of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude a man is justified by FAITH apart from the deeds of the law.
It is faith apart from works. Not faith plus works. Faith is neither a work or a gift. The GIFT of God is eternal life. That is a gift. A gift is paid in full by the giver. A reward is something you earn or work for.
The GIFT of God is eternal life. It cannot be earned or worked for. Only received from God. Acts 16:31 John 12:32. John 10:28-29
First John 2:2 For He is the propitiation for our sins, and the sins of everyone. Acts 16:31
Gary Wainwright
We believe in Christ because we have faith in Christ. Is it possible to believe in Christ yet have no faith in Him? Yes it is, but such a person is not saved (James 2:19). For example “Many people believe that Alexander the Great existed. When he was alive, many had faith in him as well, trusting him to protect them, lead them into battle, and expand the Greek Empire. However, it would be safe to assume that no one alive today is trusting him to do anything for them. They believe in his existence, but they do not have faith in him.”
To reiterate, God does not give everyone faith to believe in Christ (John 6:65). Romans 12:3 tells us Christians not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to because God has allotted to each of us a measure of faith. Faith is not a work because "He allotted us a measure of faith".
You say “God is the author and finisher of our faith” but then you contradict yourself by saying faith is not a gift. Since “God is the author of our faith” it means our faith is a gift because He is author of it.
Our experience of life shows us that we acquire something one of two ways. Either we earn it or we receive it freely as a gift.
See https://www.gotquestions.org/faith-vs-belief.html
James Kraft
The GIFT of God is eternal life. We have to believe it to be saved. God gives everyone a measure of faith. But it is where you put your faith that saves you.
If Faith was the GIFT, then God would give everyone the faith to be saved. First Timothy 2:4. John 6:40 It is Gods will that everyone believe on Him for the free gift of eternal life.
Romans 6:23 For the penalty for sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord. The GIFT of God is eternal life when we trust in Him alone plus nothing for the free gift.
Romans 6:23 For He is the just and the justifier of them that BELIEVE in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? By the law of works? Nay, but by the law of FAITH. Therefore we conclude a man is justified by FAITH apart from the deeds of the law.
John 3:16-18. First John 5:13. First Corinthians 1:18. First Corinthians 1:21. Romans 1:16. God gives eternal life to them that Believe and receive His free gift of eternal life. John 3:18. Believers have eternal life. Unbelievers are under the wrath of God because they have not believed on the name of the Son of God. John 3:36.
Ephesians 1:13. We do not get the seal of the Holy Spirit until we believe the gospel. First Corinthians 15:3-4.
John 12:32. God calls all men to believe on His Son for the free gift of eternal life. But only those who believe it are saved. John 6:47
Gary Wainwright
We agree then that God gives believers a measure of faith as stated by Paul in Romans 12:3. Because God is the author of a believer’s faith (Hebrews 12:2), it means believers did not earn their faith. If a believer did not earn their faith, then their faith is a gift. If their faith is not a gift, then they have to produce (earn) their faith. There are no other options.
Yes God “desires” that all sinners be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, John 6:40), but the Bible also states that God chose some people from eternity past (the elect), to be saved, and only those elect will genuinely respond to the gospel and be saved (Matthew 22:14, John 6:37, 44, 65 Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; James 2:5).
James Kraft
God gives everyone a measure of faith. But it is where we put that faith that saves sinners.
It is faith apart from works. Romans 4:5. Faith is what we believe to be saved. John 3:16. First John 2:2. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
But, First Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness, but unto us who are saved it is the POWER of God.
First Corinthians 1:21 For after that, by the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE.
John 3:16-18. Faith is not a gift. Eternal life is the GIFT when we believe it of our own free will.
Faith is not a work. It is neither a gift nor a work.
God is no respecter of persons. He will give eternal life to anyone who accepts His free gift of eternal life. Romans 6:23.
Romans 3:26-28 For He is the just and the justifier of them that BELIEVE on Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? By the law of FAITH. Therefore we conclude a man is justified by FAITH apart from the deeds of the law.
John 12:32 If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to me.
Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the first born of many brethren.
God foreknew before the foundation of the world who would believe on Jesus For the free gift of eternal life.
Those who have believed will be transformed at the resurrection.
Gary Wainwright
I disagree with your statement “Faith is not a work. It is neither a gift nor a work” however I do agree with your statement “God gives everyone a measure of faith” (assuming of course that when you say ‘everyone’, you mean believers since this is the context of Romans 12:3).
To reiterate my previous point, we acquire something either by earning it or by receiving it freely as a gift – there is no other way.
To say we can receive faith without work nor as a gift is illogical. For example, I require a ticket to be able to board and travel on a bus. To obtain a ticket, I will need to purchase it (work) or perhaps someone offers me a free ticket for nothing in return (gift). The same occurs with faith. Either we produce faith (work) or we receive faith freely from God (gift).
The Bible says we do not produce faith because faith comes from hearing the gospel of Christ (Romans 10:17), God gives believers a measure of faith (Romans 12:3) and He is the author of a believer’s faith (Hebrews 12:2). Therefore, faith is a gift from God because the other alternative to acquiring faith would be to earn it, which leads to boasting (Ephesians 2:8-9).
James Kraft
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace ye are saved, through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him who justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteou
Faith apart from works. So faith can not be a work. If you read it that way, then God would give everyone the faith to trust in Him alone to be saved. Gods will is for everyone to believe it and be saved. But only those who do believe it are saved. John 6:47 and John 3:18.
Acts 16:31 John 6:40. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, First John 2:2, but only those who believe it are saved. Romans 1:16.
So faith can not be a work, or a gift when it comes to salvation because that would mean John 3:16 is not true. And first John 2:2 would not be true.
No one has ever received the Holy Spirit until after they believe the gospel. First Corinthians 15:3-4.
First Corinthians 1:18 and First Corinthians 1:21. If faith was given for salvation then no one could know whether they were given the gift or if they believed of their own free will.
Eternal life is the GIFT. Romans 6:23. Not faith. For the penalty of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord. The GIFT is eternal life.
John 3:16 Jesus said it, we believe it, and that settles it. We believe John 6:47. IT is to everyone that believeth. Romans 1:16.
Again, the GIFT is eternal life when we believe it.
James Kraft
The GIFT of God is eternal life. The GIFT is that Jesus died in our place to pay our sin debt so we would not have to go to hell to pay for our sins.
If faith was the gift, then the cross of Jesus is of no effect. It is what HE did for us that we believe for the free gift of eternal life.
First John 2:2. And He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, then he paid for all my sins, so I do not have to go to hell to pay for them. Romans 4:7-8, Colossians 3:13, We have been forgiven all trespasses. Past, present and future.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that HE gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It is whosoever believes He died for them. I believe He died for my sins so I do not have to go to hell to pay for them. That is the assurance of my Salvation. John 10:28-29 No one can pluck me from His hand.
First John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God, that ye may KNOW YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. It is what He did that saved me. He took the punishment I deserve so that I now have no sins to pay for. John 3:18. Believers are no longer condemned, but unbelievers are condemned already because they have not believed on the name of the Son of God
John 3:18 Believers and unbelievers. Those who have believed and those who have not believed.
It is what we believe that saves sinners. Jesus is the Son of God who paid my sin debt in full.
Gary Wainwright
We agree faith is not a work. Since we cannot earn faith, it means we can only acquire faith if it is being freely offered to us for nothing in return. Since no one is born with faith in Christ, and before we can make a decision to believe in Christ, we require faith.
You state “So faith can not be a work, or a gift when it comes to salvation because that would mean John 3:16 is not true.” James 2:19 shows that believing in Christ without faith does not save. Therefore, John was not saying in John 3:16 that we can believe in Christ and be saved without faith.
You state “And first John 2:2 would not be true.” Yes, Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but Scripture also says that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws and enables them to do so (John 6:44, John 6:65). Scripture also says that no seeks for God and that no one understands (Romans 3:11). Unless God draws and enables us, we will not seek Him voluntarily. Unless God enables us, we will not acquire faith (Hebrews 12:2, Romans 12:3).
James Kraft
John 12:32 Jesus said, if I be lifted up will draw all men to be saved.
Faith is not a work. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace ye are saved, through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, It is the GIFT of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. Faith cannot be a work. Romans 11:6 By grace apart from works.
And Faith cannot be a gift because the GIFT of God is eternal life. Not faith. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on HIm who justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth righteousness apart from works. Blessed is the man whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not imput sin. John 3:18. Believers and unbelievers of our own free will.
But once we accept it we are saved forever. Romans 11:29 For the GIFTS, eternal life, and the calling of God, John 12;32, is without repentance. Irrevocable, can not be changed back. OSAS.
Colossians 2:13 He has forgiven us all trespasses. He paid our sin debt in full 2,000 years ago. All our sins are future sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, First Corinthians 15:3-4, for it is the POWER of God unto salvation to EVEERYONE that BELIEVETH, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
First Corinthians 1:18. First Corinthians 1:21. God saves those that believe on Jesus for the free gift of eternal life apart from any works.
Romans 3:26-28 Faith apart from works. Justified by faith.
Galatians 2:21
Gary Wainwright
You say “John 12:32 Jesus said, if I be lifted up will draw all men to be saved.” Some English translations render it this way; “when I am lifted up” (NIV, NLT, ESV etc.) instead of “if I be lifted up”. John 12:33 then states the manner in which Christ was going to be lifted up which is what occurred 2,000 years ago. When He was lifted up on the cross, we do not see all "men" coming to Him. Furthermore, the word “men” is not in the original Greek text (https://biblehub.com/text/john/12-32.htm). The translators have added in the word “men”. So the questions is, Christ draws all of something, but what? John 6:44-45 answers this question for us. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, “And they will all be taught by God.” Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.”
You say “And Faith cannot be a gift because the GIFT of God is eternal life.” How did you acquire your faith since you did not earn nor did you receive it as a gift?
James Kraft
If faith was a gift from God for salvation, everyone would be saved. First Timothy 2:4. It is Gods will that everyone believe the gospel, First Corinthians 15:3-4, and be saved.
But God has given man a free will to either believe it or not. The bible says faith comes from hearing, hearing by the word of God.
The great commission is to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
First Corinthians 1:18 But the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness, but unto us who are saved it is the POWER of God.
First Corinthians 1:21 For after that, by the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE.
First John 2:2. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, so anyone can believe the gospel of their own free will and be saved.
John 3:16. God is no respecter of persons. He died for every sin of everyone in the world. But only those who accept His free gift of eternal life are saved.
If limited atonement were true, that would make God a liar. John 3:16. First John 2:2
Romans 11:29 For the GIFTS and calling of God are without repentance. Irrevocable. Cannot be changed back.
Romans 8:29. For them He did foreknow, God knew before the foundation of the world who would believe on Him for eternal life and who would not. Them He did foreknow, them he also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son. That will happen at the resurrection. We will be like Him.
John 3:16
Gary Wainwright
Since we will have to agree to disagree, this will be my final comment.
You say “If faith was a gift from God for salvation, everyone would be saved.” The Bible never says God is obligated to give everyone the gift of faith, but He has given faith to believers (Romans 12:3, Hebrews 12:2). Secondly, the Bible never says God is obligated to choose, draw and enable everyone to come to Christ (John 10:26).
You say “First Timothy 2:4. It is Gods will that everyone believe the gospel, First Corinthians 15:3-4, and be saved.” Yes God “desires” that everyone believe and be saved, however fallen man does not desire what God desires (Jeremiah 17:9) Unless God chooses, draws and enables some to come to Christ, no one would be saved.
Yes God has given everyone free will, but the Bible also says that no seeks for God and that no one understands (Romans 3:11). This means no one freely chooses God. Whether man’s depravity is total or partial, the bottom line is that no one seeks God, therefore God must act if any are to be saved at all.
Yes, the great commission is to preach the gospel to everyone, because no one knows who will be drawn, enabled and appointed by God to believe and receive eternal life (Acts 13:48).
Continued below.
Gary Wainwright
You say “If limited atonement were true, that would make God a liar. John 3:16. First John 2:2” To reiterate, yes Christ died for everyone, but that does not mean everyone will be saved. It is limited in the sense that only those who are chosen, drawn and enabled by the Father will receive atonement for their sins.
You say “Romans 11:29 For the GIFTS and calling of God are without repentance. Irrevocable. Cannot be changed back.” Yes Romans 11:29 refers to GIFTS and not just ‘gift’. Since all gifts given to the believer are irrevocable, this means the gifts of eternal life, faith, the Holy Spirit, righteousness etc. will never be revoked by God. This is why a true believer will not unbelieve and become an ex-Christian.
You say “God knew before the foundation of the world who would believe on Him for eternal life and who would not.” God knew before the foundation of the world that no one would believe because no seeks Him and that no one understands (Romans 3:11). This is why He chose some from eternity past to be saved (Matthew 22:14, John 6:37, 44, 65 Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 1:26-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; James 2:5).