Was there death before the fall? Were all animals vegetarian?
We know that spiritual death entered the world because of Adam's sin. But, was there physical death prior to the fall, in the animal kingdom? If we say that there was no physical death before the fall, then, this must mean that every single animal was vegeterian prior to the fall, and was design to do so. But then, how come so many animals are perfectly design to kill, and not to eat grass or leaves? What was the purpose of venom, if the intention of God was that every animal was supposed to eat grass? How were sea animals able to survive, if they could not eat fish or tiny sea creatures (ex: plankton)? What about the carnivorous plants? Were they "catching leaves"? The list could go on and on. It seems to me that there was death before the fall, and that sin brought spiritual death. Too, this would reconcile with the idea of an Old Earth.
Romans 5:12
LS1910 - 12 C'est pourquoi, comme par un seul homme le péché est entré dans le monde, et par le péché la mort, et qu'ainsi la mort s'est étendue sur tous les hommes, parce que tous ont péché,...
Clarify
•
Share
•
Report
•
Asked December 04 2013
•
Samuel Bourassa
Supporter
For follow-up discussion and general commentary on the topic. Comments are sorted chronologically.
Tim Ranck
It may be a big leap, but there may have a been a second "curse creation" of sorts "...thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you..." From that verse it seems God may have created things that weren't there before, simply for a reminder of the consequence of sin. In the end God gives the picture of the lion and the lamb laying together. Since that is Gods picture of perfection, I think it's worth noting that it's possible creation could have started that way. God didn't tell humans to eat animals until after the flood, probably several thousand years after the fall.
Tim Ranck
I believe the most accurate answer from the bible is that death didn't occur until after the fall, and animals were cursed to kill and chase each other.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/03/02/satan-the-fall-good-evil-could-death-exist-before-sin
Samuel Bourassa
Thank you for your contributions, Tim.
However, I feel like their answers are not related to my questions.
Young Earth Creationism seems a lot harder to prove than Old Earth Creationism, and raises a lot of problem scientifically, exegetically and hermeneutically.
Young Earth Creationism implies that their interpretations of a literalistic reading of Genesis is totally infaillible, and the only way to approach Genesis.
Thanks for sharing!
Muherman Harun
If really, death existed before Adam and EVe (living ca 6000 years ago), this would explain the existence of dinosaurs who lived 250 million years to 65 million years ago. Some of them were carnivorous, killing their prey for food. What have our theologists have to say?
Tim Ranck
I taught earth science in public school. If you accept the evolutionary worldview of an ancient world you are giving up any hope of a bible we can have faith in. Dinosaurs are currently being studied with intact DNA and flexable original tissue and red blood cells, these animals did not die even 1 Million years ago let alone 65 million. If you research this get the new data, it was doubted at first but it has been shown to be true.
Samuel Bourassa
Hello Tim,
Nobody is talking about an evolutionary world view.
An evolutionary worldview implies 1) no God 2) chance 3) time + matter
An Old Earth world view implies God, but not a Young Creation.
This is a common misconception. It is simply false to assume that the only alternative to YEC is to accept Darwinism.
Too, you say that dinosaurs died 1 millions years ago "and it has been shown to be true".
Well, YEC would totally disagree with you.
In fact, any date before 6,000 B.C. (sometimes 10,000 B.C.) is categorically rejected by YEC, no matter what the proof is.
Tim Ranck
I said they did not die even a million years ago. There is decades and decades of biological decay research showing these levels of preservation are not possible past several thousand years.
Samuel Bourassa
You're right Tim, I missread your comment, I'm sorry.
Nevertheless, as stated before, Darwinism is not the only option to YEC.
That being said, I think there are good arguments for YEC and OEC.
Though, I feel like the answers presented in the website you suggested are not answering my initial questions in a convincing way, since they are based a lot on assumptions (but it is still interesting).
Thank you for your comments!
Tim Ranck
If you believe in old Earth, you have to assume death before the fall. Then all the venom and claw arguments don't matter. Sorry, if they don't immediately seem related. The old earth was assumed long before radiometric dating techniques which are only ~80 yrs old I think. Sorry I'm currently a stay at home dad with a 2 and 4 yr old so my thoughts aren't always laid out as clearly as they could/should be.
Gene Coleman
YEC or OEC? Was not Adam created as a adult? Same for Eve? Is not the Truth hidden from non-believers?
This could be any who rely on their own(scientific) understanding and not God's Word for their understanding.
God could have created all the OEC conditions if he chose to in the twinkling of the eye. Poof!! And it was done. How he did it? Matters not. He did it the best way. He did it His. Main thing is HE DID IT!